Chinese Speaking - Cannot pagedown -

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Cannot pagedown
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elina -

I came across this thread:
http://www. /showth..._show=comments
There’re 10 posts totally, so it’s no need to pagedown, but it shows:
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
But cannot pagedown.
Don’t know if it’s just a problem at Wikis part, or the entire forums.



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roddy -

Yeah, there's a minor glitch there, only affects the wiki sections. Vbulletin count's the
'article' post when counting the number of pages, but when you view the comments it doesn't
appear. Will only happen when there are 10, 20, 30, etc, comments to an article.












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Learning Mandarin - Can a non-native be an English teacher? - Page 3 -

> Studying, Working and Living in China > Living in China > Teaching English in
China
Can a non-native be an English teacher?
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yonglin -

You DO NOT have to enroll at the university to get an F visa. You get the F visa before you arrive
in China (from the embassy/consulate in your country). To get it, you will need an invitation
letter, which the school you're applying to will send you. Most universities require you to submit
an application fee of a couple of hundred RMB to process your application and send you the letter.
You DO NOT need to pay tuition fees before you get the letter (this is because Chinese prefer cash
payments in the form of red renminbi notes...).

(On another note, I didn't even have to submit an application fee the last time I applied (they
said they would charge it later, which they kind of didn't do ). I submitted my application by
e-mail and they mailed me the letter and visa form swiftly.)



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pingpangqiu -

Nakuru,

Take a look at this other thread with info. about changing visa's:

http://www. /showthread.php?t=18716

Think some people explain clearly how to change visa's. I'm far from a visa expert! just giving my
opinion about the possible options. Many people on this forum have been in China a lot longer than
me The idea about signing up at a Uni was simply a possible option. i.e. to get a long term visa
and also to get a basic knowledge of the language which can make life much more enjoyable in
China. Yes it is much more pricey than just changing your tourist visa to a working visa.

Some people are saying that you cannot change your tourist visa to a working visa anymore. I am
not sure about this. In many cases I guess you still can by using a visa agency. But I imagine in
come cases you cannot. Check the link I gave you and other forums such as www.shanghaiexpat.com
which is a very active forum in Shanghai. Use the search option on that site and this site and I'm
sure you will find lots of info. about visa's. From my experience in Shanghai most schools don't
really care what type of visa you have. They are just glad to find a teacher. I know of many
people who teach English working on long-term student visa's and business visa's when by law they
shouldn't be doing this. The school's just seem to say " well there are some laws in China that
are strict and some that are less strict!"

As I say have a look at some of the other threads on this site, I sure they will answer your
question.

Good luck!










Rincewind -



Quote:

From my experience in Shanghai most schools don't really care what type of visa you have. They are
just glad to find a teacher. I know of many people who teach English working on long-term student
visa's and business visa's when by law they shouldn't be doing this. The school's just seem to say
" well there are some laws in China that are strict and some that are less strict!"

This is true. Employing someone on the wrong visa is much cheaper than paying for all the proper
licenses, permits and doing all the paperwork. Just be aware that the school probably has enough
contacts to get away with employing you illegally. While on the other hand you have no contacts
that can keep you out of trouble. I have known more than one teacher who has be wakened by the PSB
in the early morning and gone to the police station for breakfast because their school didn't do
the visa and residency permit properly. While they did get the situation sorted out in the end, it
was not without allot of stress and some fines.










Senzhi -

Yes Rincewind,

I still believe a Residence Permit is key into working and living properly in China.
It's the same for foreigners trying to work and live in our countries, isn't it?










Rincewind -

It's probably worse for people going to the West without proper permits. If you work without
permits, you almost always end up working for low quality employers with poor or illegal pay and
conditions. Many people going to the UK illegally end up in criminal trades such as drugs and
prostitution (often against their will). Some end up dead - refer to the 23 Chinese cockle
fishermen who died in Morecambe Bay a few years back.

In the UK, if you are caught, you won't simply be fined. You'll end up in a jail or detention
centre before going home. The immigration officers are even empowered to remove children born in
the UK when their parents entered the country unlawfully.










xray83 -

Hey guys. I am getting confused by the native english. I am Chinese-Canadian. Does that mean I
will have problems securing employment as an English teacher in China?










Rincewind -

Non-native as used in this thread means that English is not your mother tougue. I'll reply to the
other side of your question on the other thread you have running.










royba -

Being a non-native English-speaker is not particularly restrictive. What is more important is your
accent. If you speak English well with no marked accent, and a university degree, you can get a
job as an English teacher.


And don;t forget there is a demand (certainly in Berlitz) for teaching languages other than
English. There are many French companies in Beijing and Shanghai, and German too. They need to
have their staff taught their language.












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Study Chinese - 一去不复返了 -

> Learning Chinese > Grammar and Vocabulary
一去不复返了
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wrbt -

I can't make sense of this sentence about Beijing Opera actors in the essay at:
http://clavisinica.com/CVP/opera.html

他们身上的精湛技艺和敬业精神都一去不复返了

Thanks in advance for any help.



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muyongshi -

What it's saying is that the current generation will never be able to compare with the last
generation. The way the last generation did it, there make-up and such (I'm paraphrasing) has gone
and will not come back.

It's kind of like saying it can never be as good as the original.

Hope that makes sense! (does it?)










wrbt -

Yes that makes sense. Tough idiom to see from the literal, thanks a lot for the help I appreciate
it.












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Chinese Mandarin - ZDT: 070RC1 - Unsatisfied with Font Choices -

> Learning Chinese > Chinese Computing and Technology > ZDT Flashcards Forum
ZDT: 070RC1 - Unsatisfied with Font Choices
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drahnier -

With the new RC1 build of zdt I am unable to chose a well-balanced font layout.

This is especially annoying for me since I intend to use zdt on a tiny UMPC device featuring quite
a high dpi resolution (1024x 600 on sub 7inch screen) to do some learning on the go.

The fonts used in various frames seem to be too dependend from each other:



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bogleg -

I'm not sure what you mean by dependent. Are you saying that if you increase the text size, the
text in the flashcard view might be fine, but the text in the category editor will end up too big?

Chris










drahnier -

exactly. - shouldn't they end up the same size?

in the mode depicted, that text size also can't be increased/decreased when using "Edit -> Texst
Size -> Increase Flashcard", or "Edit -> Texst Size -> Decrease Flashcard".










bogleg -

I'm currently re-uploading the rc1 build to sourceforge since I found a pretty major bug in the
self review test. I also snuck in the requested font changes into this build.

Text Size > Increase Flashcard (Ctrl-Shift +)
bumps up size of the font of the chinese character shown in the test.

Text Size > Increase (Ctrl +)
bumps up the size of the rest of the text

Chris












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Chinese Class - "A Christmas Carol" auditions coming to Beijing -

> Studying, Working and Living in China > Living in China > Classifieds
"A Christmas Carol" auditions coming to Beijing
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BeijingPlayhous -

BEIJING
PLAYHOUSE
AUDITION
ANNOUNCEMENT


Beijing Playhouse announces auditions for the following production.


PLAY/PRODUCTION: “A Christmas Carol.”30 singers and actors wanted for to perform in the annual
holiday tradition A Christmas Carol. Performed in English with Chinese subtitles.


THEATRE/STUDIO: Beijing Playhouse


AUDITION DATES: Sunday, September 23rd and Monday, September 24th at 6:30 pm, 2007.


LOCATION: Beijing Playhouse. Beijing Playhouse's performances of A Christmas Carol are
conveniently located in the Chaoyang District (exact location to be determined).


ROLE(S): All roles open. 10 men, age 18-80. 8 women, 18-80. 3 boys, age 5-17. 5 girls, age 5-17. 1
boy age 5-8. 1 man age 60-90. Professional acting experience is not necessary. We love discovering
new talent. Nationality is not important. Ability to perform in English is required.


AUDITION FORMAT: Actors and singers should prepare a song and will do a live read from the script.
Prepared monologue is optional but not necessary. Actors welcome; not all roles require singing.


PAY: This is volunteer fun - although cast and crew may be paid a small stipend based on show
attendance.


PERFORMANCE DATES: Performances are Wednesday to Saturday nights and Sunday matinees, December 7th
to 30th, 2007. Rehearsals are Sunday to Thursday nights at 6:30 pm September 30th to December 6th,
2007.'


CONTACT:Beijing Playhouse (www.beijingplayhouse.com),
performance@beijingplayhouse.com.



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Chinese Online Class - Help - I've lost the link! Free undergraduate online univ. course? -

> Learning Chinese > Resources and General Study Issues
Help - I've lost the link! Free undergraduate online univ. course?
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Chinese Learner -

Hi

A few days ago I came across a free supplemental online course for undergraduates from a Canadian
(or possibly Australian or US) University with recorded conversations and transcriptions in
characters, pinyin and English. I can't find the link!

This was a whole series of recorded conversations. Obviously the first conversation was a

Nǐ hǎo?
Nǐ mang ma?
....
Wǒ di di hěn mang...


Anyone know the link? I think they used red for their banner...It had a really short snappy name
but Ican't remember it!!!

Thanks!!



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Chinese Learner -

Hi,

It's OK! After tearing my hair out looking through my history - I found it:

http://chinese.rutgers.edu/index_e.htm

Cheers












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Study Chinese - Try to read one of the four "classics" or something easier, suggestions please. - Page 3 -

> Learning Chinese > Reading and Writing
Try to read one of the four "classics" or something easier, suggestions please.
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Page 3 of 3 < 12 3






mandel1luke -

Try 巴金's 《憩园》 Qiyuan

the title's the hardest thing...should be set text for 2nd language learners



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Shadowdh -

Wushijiao... only started 活着 (first page literally) before I got all my books for uni and the
yue du book there is pretty good and has some short fairly interesting stories (for a text book)
thats aimed at my level (or just above so is challenging in a good way)... I will continue with
活着 when I get a handle on all the work they are handing out... they love the homework here
dont they...

Mandel1luke... thanks for the suggestion...












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Chinese Class - examples representing these characters ? -

> Chinese Culture > Art and Literature
examples representing these characters ?
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FLYINGFEATHER2 -

Hello every one:

Foreigners say Chinese classical poems are light, intangible, and suggestive. Who can give some
examples representing these characters respectively.

Thank you.



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Learn Chinese online - Everything is making me sick! -

> Studying, Working and Living in China > Living in China
Everything is making me sick!
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Page 1 of 6 1 23 > »






optical -

I've been here in suzhou(and china all together) for 3 days now and every single thing I have
eaten has made me feel sick, some things more than others. I've had everything from packaged dried
chips to cooked cafeteria food to instant noodles with boiled water, all make me sick, the last
one made me the most sick.

I am drinking a lot of bottled water and gatorade because I am sweating so much, and trying to
sleep as much as I can, but I keep getting sick! What is going on? Is this something that I just
have to deal with on my own or is there something I am doing, or is there medicine..?

I am really getting distressed... any help would be appreciated.



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CheukMo -

Try some acidophilus. That's what is used by gringos in Mexico for those symptoms. I hope this
helps.










adrianlondon -

Sounds like something gave you food poisoning. Might even have been something the day before you
arrived or on the flight (although that's unlikely considering the tests it all goes under).

Anyway, revel in the weight loss and it should cure utself within a couple more days. Drink lots
of water or weak tea, and if you get headaches (despite drinking lots of water) then eat something
salty.










Long Pan -

Better than Gatorade or even tea, I would drink a lot of water, 2 or 3 liters per day (mineral
water of course) + eat plain rice ("mifan"); avoid sauce & fruits.

In case you still do not feel good after another day, I would condider the option to go and see a
doctor. Try to see a foreign one if there is one around. Otherwise go for a Chinese one, most of
them are good (especially I guess in places like Suzhou), and some might speak English.

Let us know about how things are going










madizi -

Do you vomit or just feel uncomfortable in your stomach? Do you have fever? I don't wanna sound
like doctor (I'm not), but it would be helpful if you could provide us with more info.

If you have diarrhoea, then you should eat 粥 zhōu every day (it's rice porrige). It's should
also be effective with mild poisoning. But if your poisonig is serious, then you should see a
doctor immediately!










simonlaing -

Hi optical,

My Dad the traveling doctor, tells me that many countries food take a little while to get used to.
The reason is our stomach has certain bacteria that is used to eating certain kinds of food. Your
stomach is used to your home country food and when you travel to different continent it takes a
few days to about a week for the digestive bacteria in your stomach to adjust. (The bad news it is
will just be some time and you will be ok.)
Espicially vegetable type street food. Also getting a little diarhea in China is normal every once
in a while. Be glad you're not in Hunan where you have the possibility to get spicy diarhea .


Other advice would be to avoid street food (aka people who sell food cooked out of a stall) . Most
of the time they don't wash the wok between cooking and sometimes the vegetables aren't washed, as
the use of night soil is common on farms this can cause food posioning as well.
Decent looking restaurants and shops , that look very clean are usually a good bet.

One food that seems to satisfy the stomach of some of my western friends that couldn't eat many
types of Chinese food is dumplings, Shui jiao. If they are in a soup they are called huntun (won
ton soup ). These will be boiled quickly. Be wary of the fried dummplings as they can be oily.
Though this kind of fried dumpling isn't common so you don't have to worry much.

There are lots of Chinese and western medicine for stomach issues as well. You may want to think
of getting some medicine until your body adapts to the new kind of food.

have fun,
Simon
P.S. the Chinese often have similar issues eating Cheesy, and heavy foods when they come to the
west.










mr.stinky -

maybe this will help:

http://www. /showthread.php?t=17026

also a couple other useful products. the one on the right is a powder mixed into hot
water. i think it's a form of bentonite (clay used for drilling mud) that sucks up excess
liquid in all the right places, expands, and sorta plugs the leaks.

your expat insurance should have an in-country number you can call. they may advise
you not to take anything at first, just let it pass.










CheukMo -

The getting used to the bacteria in foods in other countries is part of what acidophilus corrects.
Acidophilos stabilizes the bacterial imbalance. If you can't find acidophilus, try to find yogurt,
it does a very similar thing.










heifeng -

Not to pick on the south, but in the more southern regions of China (Shanghai, Nanjing, Suzhou) my
classmates and I would often have more stomach problems than in the North...almost everyday
someone would have to stand up and run to the restroom in the middle of class or get sick..the hot
weather must make the bacteria in already questionably safe food multiply! Hopefully with your
adjustment to your new weather surroundings and cooling temperatures you'll get better soon!

Aside from medicine and rice, you may want to try 果冻...basically individually sealed bite
sized jello bits and crackers (not together though of course hehe). i would recommend taiping
brand plain crackers, or one of the western brands maybe.

If you are losing a ton of fluids...maybe a banana here and there...a can of sprite...ok wait this
sounds like a hangover remedy...

Hope you get better soon!

Disclaimer____
Yeah, I am also not a doctor...I am just giving recommendations based on my own slightly similar
experiences. However, if you are continually losing fluids for any more days and feeling really
weak you may just not want to chance it and really see a doctor!










madizi -



Quote:

Also getting a little diarhea in China is normal every once in a while. Be glad you're not in
Hunan where you have the possibility to get spicy diarhea .

Haha, yes. That's why I'm adapting slowly to spicy food. "Turbulent" experience 8 years ago in
Sichuan was enough.....

I have a question regarding this bacteria. Does this "Chinese" bacteria, once you get it inside
your stomach, stays there forever or does it go out when you're back in your home country? I'm
asking this because I have expected to have some troubles with my stomach after my arrival to
China (the last time I was in this area, was 5 years ago in Taiwan), but until now nothing
dramatical happened. I'm happy because of that, of course. But is there any possibility that all
sort of "cramps" will come later? I really would not like to run to a toilet in the middle of
teaching a class....












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Chinese Tutor - Remembering Simplified Hanzi 1 and Remembering Traditional Hanzi 1 - Page 4 -

> Learning Chinese > Reading and Writing
Remembering Simplified Hanzi 1 and Remembering Traditional Hanzi 1
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leosmith -



Quote:

Any given character only has one radical.

I guess I wasn't referring to the radical then, but the "components" of the characters (sorry, I
don't know the correct name for the components). I've heard that about 30% have readings that can
be determined by the components. Sound right?



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gato -

Actually, I think these books will be pretty useful to those of us who already read Chinese but
haven't memorized the characters well enough to write them by hand.










simonlaing -

Hi guys,

I feel bad coming into the conversation late but I felt obligated to put my two cents in.
Part 1/2
First this is not the first time this type of book has been done.
Two books spring to mind. One use the herzig style a bit of making up stories for the radical
parts, but is a collection of vocabularies around certain topics. It's call Urban Chinese. I
thought it's explanation of measure words and the connections of the measure words to parts of
words they measure can be quite good.

The second and in my view superior book is a Key to Chinese Speech and Writing
http://www.chinesetutor.net/2006_04_...ndWriting1.jpg

massive and unnecessary inline image removed. Roddy
and a link to another pic
http://www.chinesetutor.net/2006_04_06/AkeytoChineseSpeechandWriting1a.jpg
It is written by a French Guy Joel Bellassen, and is a translation of the french book that he
wrote.
The First part on speaking is not so long but as he introduced radicals and then the words that
use the radicals he still keep the pinyin there. What's more he tells of the background of the
characters so you see the eye yan radical was rounded first then square then veritical.
He also does a good job writing short paragraphs that progressively use the words and characters
that you have learned. Also unlike the herzig book it is soft on the amount of English written,
mostly at the beginning dicussing placement of the tongue, in the vocab section talking about the
history and what connection to make with each character. (There are also english cultural
paragraphs at the end of each Chapter. Some times these are the stories behind idioms.)










simonlaing -

Part 2 of 2

I think this latter book is superior for beginners for several readings:
1. There is pinyin included as you go along, so you can speak some sentences after the 3 lesson or
so.
2. It does break the characters into parts to make them easier to memorize, but it uses the
original Chinese way of thinking about them.
3. The way it is constructed with dialogues and paragraphs, gives you a feeling of accomplishment
while limitting the vocabulary to words easy to link with the other words you have learned.
4. The Herzig is unrealistic for people who want to learn Chinese to communicate. Most people drop
Chinese after the first semester, and you say you have to study for 7 months before you can speak.


The new practical reader also has some radicals in it's text , but these seem like an after
thought to help with learning to write the characters, when I think they are more important to
structure your way of learning the language.
http://www.chinesetutor.net/Books/BK...nyukeben1.html

I teach English to many Chinese students, some of whom have never opened their mouths in class to
speak English.They have to learn the words all over again pretty much. (At the time we just needed
it for the test) . And probably this method will be good for taking the test, but a book that
leaves you unable to communicate orally is doing a disservice.

I did the reverse and learned only pinyin without reading and writing and regret it tremendous as
I had to go back and learn almost all the words again connecting the pinyin meaning with the
writing the character in my brain.
It seems like the supporters are suggesting that you learn all these word's meanings and then
later go back and learn their pronunciation. I can't imagine the time consumed.

Good luck,
have fun,
SimoN










JimmySeal -

Simon,
Could you provide an image from later in that book? I'm curious to see how it presents characters
towards the middle of the book.










Mugi -



Quote:

Originally Posted by leosmith
I guess I wasn't referring to the radical then, but the "components" of the characters (sorry, I
don't know the correct name for the components). I've heard that about 30% have readings that can
be determined by the components. Sound right?

There's no absolute figure - it depends on the individual's knowledge of Chinese. How many
characters do you "know" in Putonghua? Do you have a knowledge of other dialects? Do you have a
knowledge of Middle Chinese phonology? Do you have a knowledge of other languages influenced by
Chinese? For me personally, the percentage is probably closer to 70%. For someone with extensive
knowledge of Middle Chinese, it's probably closer to 90%. For a non-Chinese university student
with one year under their belt, probably closer to 10%. But I really have no idea - these are just
guesses based on my personal experience and may not bear out in data from a scientific survey.

Moreover, these percentages I'm floating don't represent an exact pronunciation match - they
represent the narrowing down of an unknown character's pronunciation from hundreds of
possibilities to 3 or 4.










Mugi -

Jimmy, taken in isolation you are right, there is nothing that dictates how a particular character
should be pronounced. But Chinese characters are part of a system, and in that context there are
components in many (in fact the majority) of characters that do hint (to greater and lesser
degrees depending on the idividual reader's knowledge) at how to pronounce it. You may wish to
learn the pronunciation of every character independently, but I personally am not one to look a
gifthorse in the mouth (in fact I couldn't, even if I wanted to - if I didn't know the
pronunciation of 柏 already, I would automatically guess that it is "bai", failing that, I would
guess "bo". Why don't I make a guess at another pronunciation? Because I can see the phonetic
component 白 and it tells me that the character is most likely pronounced "bai" or "bo". The 白
portion of the character dictates that it should be verbalized in a certain way.)


Quote:

As you yourself have said, the Japanese have been doing it for centuries.

As I also implied, this is hardly a model that should be mimicked; I would be surprised if there
were a less efficient writing system in the world than Japanese!



Quote:

Anyone who would confuse these with actual etymologies shouldn't be trying to learn Chinese and
should probably get their head examined while they're at it

Quite right you are - but reality is often stranger than fiction. A couple of years ago an
(intelligent) friend of mine was learning to read and write Japanese in earnest (she grew up here,
so can speak fluently but went to a missionary school so never learnt to read and write) and was
using a mnemonic system - I can't remember how many times she came to me asking about this
character or that, clearly misconstruing the mnemonic for a genuine etymology.
While I concede the examples of obvious mnemonics you give, there are still a number where the
lines aren't so clear to a beginner: numbers 77 and 78, and "wealth" on pg54 in the simplified
character PDF seem quite plausible, but are inaccurate. I will confess, the more examples I read
the more clearly the mnemonics come across for what they are and not attempts at legitimate
etymological explanations, so I may have been a bit hasty in my criticism here ...










leosmith -



Quote:

I think this latter book is superior for beginners for several readings:
1. There is pinyin included as you go along, so you can speak some sentences after the 3 lesson or
so.
2. It does break the characters into parts to make them easier to memorize, but it uses the
original Chinese way of thinking about them.
3. The way it is constructed with dialogues and paragraphs, gives you a feeling of accomplishment
while limitting the vocabulary to words easy to link with the other words you have learned.

So you prefer to do everything at once, which is pretty much the opposite of Heisig's philosophy
of divide and conquer.



Quote:

4. The Herzig is unrealistic for people who want to learn Chinese to communicate.



Quote:

And probably this method will be good for taking the test, but a book that leaves you unable to
communicate orally is doing a disservice.



Quote:

It seems like the supporters are suggesting that you learn all these word's meanings and then
later go back and learn their pronunciation.

In case anyone missed this the first time, the Heisig method (or the Herzig) accomplishes the same
thing as traditional methods. It just does it in a different order:


Quote:

Normal road to literacy:
1)learn words & their characters
2)read simple literature
3)repeat steps 1 & 2 many times
4)read normal literature

Heisigs road to literacy:
1)learn characters (Heisig)
2)learn words
3)read simple literature
4)repeat steps 2 & 3 many times
5)read normal literature



Quote:

Most people drop Chinese after the first semester, and you say you have to study for 7 months
before you can speak.

For 2000 characters, I studied 10 hrs per week for 7 months. But think of it as 1 to 1.5hours per
10 characters, depending on the person and whether one uses an SRS. How many months it takes
depends on how many hours per month one works.



Quote:

I did the reverse and learned only pinyin without reading and writing and regret it tremendous as
I had to go back and learn almost all the words again connecting the pinyin meaning with the
writing the character in my brain.

That's interesting. I'm learning pinyin first too. But because of my knowledge of Kanji, I
recognize many characters already, and I often glance at chinese writing and know which chinese
word I'm looking at. Learning to read after going through Heisig will be quite easy for me. Good
luck with your traditional methods though.










Mark Yong -



Quote:

Originally Posted by gato:
I'm trying to think whether this method of learning the character but not the pronunciation will
help one navigate the streets or use a map.

JimmySeal wrote:
Absolutely. This method takes one's character recognition to astronomical levels. In fact, when I
went to Taiwan last month, I was able to read signs and menus that I couldn't pronounce and was
able to communicate what I needed by writing and pointing, something that fluent pinyin-only
learners can't do.

As a native speaker of Cantonese and a late-learner of Mandarin, I often have problems speaking
to, and understanding my fellow mainland Chinese counterparts when conversing with them. Often
times, I resort to writing e-mails and IM's using Chinese, and this effectively bridges the gap.
The funny thing is, there are many words that I write that I do not know the pronunciation for (in
these instances, I use the IME writing pad to generate the characters)! So, on that note, I fully
agree with JimmySeal above.

In a couple of my previous forum threads, I discussed this concept of the universality of 漢字
Chinese characters, as used in China, Japan and Korea, and how - once upon a time - there existed
a common written language, i.e. 文言 Literary Chinese, that bridged the gap of different spoken
tongues via a common written language.

A little closer to home, even once upon a time before the advent of the Mandarin vernacular
language, speakers of different dialects all across China could communicate via the written word,
with absolutely no recourse to a common spoken language.










Mark Yong -



Quote:

Originally Posted by gato:
I'm trying to think whether this method of learning the character but not the pronunciation will
help one navigate the streets or use a map.

JimmySeal wrote:
Absolutely. This method takes one's character recognition to astronomical levels. In fact, when I
went to Taiwan last month, I was able to read signs and menus that I couldn't pronounce and was
able to communicate what I needed by writing and pointing, something that fluent pinyin-only
learners can't do.

As a native speaker of Cantonese and a late-learner of Mandarin, I often have problems speaking
to, and understanding my fellow mainland Chinese counterparts when conversing with them. Often
times, I resort to writing e-mails and IM's using Chinese, and this effectively bridges the gap.
The funny thing is, there are many words that I write that I do not know the pronunciation for (in
these instances, I use the IME writing pad to generate the characters)! So, on that note, I fully
agree with JimmySeal above.

In a couple of my previous forum threads, I discussed this concept of the universality of 漢字
Chinese characters, as used in China, Japan and Korea, and how - once upon a time - there existed
a common written language, i.e. 文言 Literary Chinese, that bridged the gap of different spoken
tongues via a common written language.

A little closer to home, even once upon a time before the advent of the Mandarin vernacular
language, speakers of different dialects all across China could communicate via the written word,
with absolutely no recourse to a common spoken language.












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Study Chinese - Criticise my accent -

> Learning Chinese > Speaking and Listening
Criticise my accent
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ai_ya -

Hello, my name is David, I'm from the UK and I'm 18 years old.
I've been learning Chinese for a few years now, and I am going to attend university in Dalian next
week.
I would like people to criticise my accent - what's good and bad about it, and how I could improve.
I just read a silly story that I found - didn't want to read anything too serious.
Thanks !



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semantic nuance -

Well done!

I notice 2 words that I think you can work more on them:

1. 突然一隻小猴子喊起來:不好了.... You sound to prounce it between the first and the
second tone. It should be the 3rd tone.

2. 月亮掉到井裡了. 大猴子一看也叫了起來:不好了!
月亮真地掉到井裡了...You prounce it as 'yao4', but it should be 'dao4'.

I believe you know their pronunciations but read them off the tone out of nervousness.
Good job! Keep going!!

Hope it helps!










coolnicholas -

very good !! at least i can understand what you tell about.your pronunciation is very good!










Ari 桑 -

Super good. How long have you been studying?










h.way -

hi ,ai_ya ,I have to say ,your accent sounds not bad at all,amazing
well,some tips for you
there some words should be pronunced more mellow and full,like
晚　来　捞上来　小　拉着 接 这
Generally speaking ,no obviosly mistake in the tone of your pronunciation except 接jie1,not jie4
I must admit that your Chinese sounds much better than my English.












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Chinese School - Dalian University of Technology -

> Studying, Working and Living in China > Universities and Schools
Dalian University of Technology
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Thundercat8 -

I'm studying at DUT for a year starting in a few weeks! I was wondering if anybody else on here is
either going there this year, has been there before, or knows anything about it. I am also staying
with a local family, and am a little bit concerned that it's going to be very strict. I want to go
out and have a good time, don't want a curfew at 9pm every night for example! (of course, if I
did, I'd stick to it, don't want to insult my new family!)

谢谢啊！



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mandarina -

I am going to DUT starting a one year course this fall. If you have any questions, send me a p.m.
And good luck with your new family!










gato -

Go ahead and ask the questions here so others can see as well.










Kristyx -

I know a teacher from DUT and she's a great teacher. If the other teachers are of the same quality
you won't have any worries in terms of classes. That alone should put your mind at ease a little.










Thundercat8 -

I'm sure the classes will be fantastic at DUT, as it's quite an established course for teaching
foreigners as far as I'm aware. I wanted to go somewhere a little more original than Beijing or
Shanghai, and as I've already spent 6 months in Yunnan province, I decided Dalian was the place to
be. I've never been before, so it's a little daunting that I've chosen somewhere to live for a
year based on it's geographical location! Plus, I love being near the sea!!! (I live on an
island...)

I've been told the classes are 8am - midday Monday - Friday, and that we can also learn other
things in the afternoon. What kind of other courses can we do? Although I'd be rubbish at it, I
would like to learn calligraphy. It's so beautiful!

What is Dalian like in terms of number of foreigners? I want to fully immerse myself in Chinese
culture, and hope I don't get caught up in a maelstrom of ex-pats. Surely I can resist the urge, I
just wondered what it was like in Dalian.

Does anyone know how we pay the tuition fees? In the email, it says I need to pay 13000Y or
something like that, which is around £1000. Quite a lot to be carrying around in cash on my first
day! Do I have to pay on the first day in cash, or do they accept cheques or cards?

Anyway, I really can't wait to go (under 2 weeks!) and as I'm not going with any classmates, I
would love to get to know some people before i get there. Please feel free to send me a message
and we can talk on MSN or something.

Thank you all.










gato -

A bunch of old threads on Dalian:

http://www. /showth...ghlight=dalian
DUFL/Dalian possible Beijing Move

http://www. /showth...ghlight=dalian
Which 2nd tier city to study in?

http://www. /showth...ghlight=dalian
Liaoning Shifan Daxue - Dalian, China

http://www. /showth...ghlight=dalian
Dalian

http://www. /showth...ghlight=dalian
Dalian Language Inst (Dawai) vs Dalian Tech vs Beijing










Thundercat8 -

Hey all. I am in Dalian now, and going to register next week. A little bit nervous about being
here on my own, so if anybody would like to meet up, that'd be awesome!










mandarina -

Hey. I'll be coming to Dalian on Wednesday, so we could met up. Until then, keep your head up. And
tell me, what's your first impression about Dalian?










Thundercat8 -

Excellent, it will be great to meet up with you! I don't know where you will be living, though I
assume it'll be near the University. I have a Chinese mobile number I could give you on a private
message, or we could just agree on a central location and time? Whatever, I'm easy I really like
Dalian actually, it's a very modern, shiny, buzzing city, which is clean, pretty and impressive.
Very Chinese actually, I was expecting it to be more Russian/Japanese like all the guidebooks say,
but it's definitely a Chinese city!! Anyway, best of luck for your journey. Oh, and I'm certainly
keeping my head up. Don't want to miss a thing!!










nairbv -

I arrived here in dalian today from beijing, and it looks like i'll be studying at DUT. see you
all soon.

-brian












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Learning Mandarin - I Hate Hanzi - Page 4 -

> Learning Chinese > Reading and Writing
I Hate Hanzi
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gato -



Quote:

wow...what kind of magazine is that?

I think he's referring magazines in English, not Chinese. See his reference to Thomas Mann's
"Magic Mountain."



Quote:

That experience did not convince me that reading was something I like, I just learned that many of
the "classics" are really bad, see "The Magic Mountain" by "Thomas Mann".

Maybe you should try Hermann Hesse, another German.



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bomaci -



Quote:

The Chinese system may provide a good example of how not to learn a foreign language, but doing
exactly opposite of what they do is not really optimal, either. Consider many Europeans who learn
English as a second language who can readily read, write, and speak English.

I am one of those europeans but although we in Sweden learn English for 9 years in school I still
feel that most of my English was picked up by watching subtitled American and English tv programs
for years followed by alot of reading.










sthubbar -



Quote:

wow...what kind of magazine is that?

Forbes, The Economist, Scientific American, National Geographic, Time, and Reader's Digest. Does
"Obsessive Compulsive Disorder" mean anything to you?










zozzen -

I get used to whine about learning language too, but my targets are european languages. While
French, Italian, Spanish, Romanian share many common vocab and similar grammer rules, spellings
are just different and divide into different "languages". Had Latin adopted European Characters
2000 years ago, I would spend much lesser time in learning to read more articles from this
continent.










JimmySeal -

Not really sure what you're saying here, zozzen. What are "European Characters?" Latin was using
the same alphabet 2000 years ago as it still is now.










atitarev -

Me too, I got very confused with the meaning of Zozzen's post. Zozzen, maybe, you need to read
your post carefully and rephrase it, otherwise it's hard to understand what you meant.

BTW, it's grammar, not grammer

Although, http://www.pinyin.info site somewhat demoralises the will to learn Chinese characters by
explaining how to do without them, the site has a lot of interesting thoughts. It's true that our
speech is often affected by the writing system, e.g. why is "chance" pronounced the way it's
pronounced? It's a French word and it should be "shahngss" but it's spelled with "ch". If Chinese
adopted a phonetic script a long time ago, it would have a lot of words pronounced differently
from the way they are pronounced now, especially onomatopoeia, foreign and dialectal borrowings.
As the original poster said, far from 100% of characters are intuitive and can be explained. The
Japanese reduced the usage of characters (kanji) for a reason - why write in Chinese characters
words, which have no connection whatsoever with the meaning of the characters used, especially
foreign words?










zozzen -



Quote:

Not really sure what you're saying here, zozzen. What are "European Characters?" Latin was using
the same alphabet 2000 years ago as it still is now.

Had there anything called "European characters" , "pictogram" or non-phonetic scripts, which had a
loose relationship between spoken and written language, European might have a single set of
written scripts to represent many different European languages. Learning alphabets seem to be
easier, but difference in phonetics can often produce a new breed of language and it takes time to
learn too. I'm not so keen in saying which written form is better, I just feel that it's like
comparing apples with oranges.










JimmySeal -

The main difference between the situations in Europe and China are not the writing systems they
use. The main difference is that Europeans read and write in their own languages while a large
portion of Chinese do not. Anyone other than Mandarin speakers must learn to read and write in a
word order they don't speak and hear, and to read and write words they don't use.
Europeans could do the same. They don't need a special writing system to do it. Europeans could
all learn to read and write in Spanish, or French, or Latin, and it would be a lot faster and
easier than learning 3000 separate characters and a special word order for using them. In fact,
many people did use Latin in the past when they wanted to communicate across language borders, but
now that place of honor has been replaced by English.

A complex writing system is nothing without the language behind it. The Chinese written language
is ok for writing the dialects of Chinese because they share relatively similar vocabulary and
word order, but just try and get Koreans and Japanese to read and write in Written Chinese. Not
gonna happen.
Similarly, I don't think there could exist a phonetic/ideographic/logographic writing system that
could be used by French, Germans, Hungarians, and Portuguese, that wouldn't require more extra
effort than it saved.










zozzen -

"To use Chinese characters" and "To use Chinese characters to write Mandarin as lingua franca"
shouldn't be mixed up. Brushed away political bias, Mandarin is only one of the Chinese "dialect"
written in Chinese characters. Like Japanese Kunyomi, many Chinese dialect speakers also read
Chinese characters in their own tongues.

While Europeans read and write in their own languages, it's true many Chinese do not, but it's
more a political and cultural than linguistic issue. Some Chinese dialects has developed its own
written style (like Taiwanese and HongKongese) but these are taken as polticial incorrectness in
the Mainland China. So far the Proprogranda Minstry is still notorious to maintain "a cleanup on
regional dialect appeared in newspaper". Perhaps it's too easy to adopt Mandarin as written
language, vast majority Chinese seems not so eager to develop their own written form too.

But it doesn't mean that Chinese characters exclude this possbility. In the past, Japanese, Korean
and Vietnamese all developed its own system of mixing Chinese characters and locally invented
script to write a lot documents. Although read in different pronunication, these documents can be
roughly read, without translation, across different countries.

I don't mean Chinese characters are the better form of "lingua franca" than Latin or English.
They're just different from many aspects. Direct comparison is often misleading, if not tricky.
For example, those who suggest Latin is easier to learn than Chinese characters may oversee its
conugation, declension, genders.

"Anyone other than Mandarin speakers must learn to read and write words they don't use." I don't
get what you mean. Do you refer to different regional vocab? (like 夜宵 in Beijingese and 宵夜
in Cantonese? ) That just can't be avoided.










JimmySeal -



Quote:

But it doesn't mean that Chinese characters exclude this possbility. In the past, Japanese, Korean
and Vietnamese all developed its own system of mixing Chinese characters and locally invented
script to write a lot documents. Although read in different pronunication, these documents can be
roughly read, without translation, across different countries.

Chinese characters can indeed be used to write different dialects and languages, but that doesn't
mean they're going to be mutually intelligible. I think written Hakka is probably as difficult for
a Mandarin speaker as written Spanish is for a French speaker. They have to learn that
系 means 是
唔系 means 不是
曼人 means 誰
etc. And a whole different word order.
Hardly a simple difference. So unless everyone writes and reads in the same written language (e.g.
Mandarin), the benefits of the Chinese characters that you are touting don't exist.
A Chinese speaker might be able to pick out individual words from a Japanese text, but they would
not grasp the overall meaning well, if at all. Similarly, a Japanese person trying to read Chinese
would be completely and utterly lost. Simply writing in the same character set in no way ensures
that people from different languages will be able to understand each other.












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Chinese School - Any foreigners speaking Chinese on a videoblog? -

> Learning Chinese > Speaking and Listening
Any foreigners speaking Chinese on a videoblog?
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WoAiJolinTsai -

You know, kind like applemilk1988 on youtube speaks Japanese?



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roddy -

Are you looking for someone doing a regular videocast kind of thing, or just a one-off? this was
posted here a while ago by one of our own members.










zhwj -

This guy does occasional videos, and if you dig back in his archives, you'll find Youtube clips of
chats he did while on the road for some CCTV show.










WoAiJolinTsai -

There are so many Japanese ones... there has to be atleast one in Chinese. Anyone?










WoAiJolinTsai -

Well.. if theres no1.. someone here better start!

Maybe I will, give me a few weeks and I'll check back and make a post.












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Chinese Studies - 我给你说 - Page 4 -

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我给你说
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cdn_in_bj -



Quote:

this is a sentence that someone express angry emotion to somebody,and he/she thinks that this
person is bad.

Here's one that would be directed to a man from a woman:

你(真)不是个男人!

It's not as tame as it sounds, and would be considered a severe loss of face for the receiver:



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kelvinzhao -

I am a Chinese,

I explain "大胜" and "大败" in this way,

"大胜" is a common expression in Chinese and most of people can understand what it means.

"大败" is kind of meaning from ancient Chinese, it means make somebody lose, "使....败".

for "差点" and “差点没” , I think it depends what activity next to them, if something bad
such as "摔倒". they mean same, if something should be good such as "赶上公车", they mean
different.

so "差点摔倒" and “差点没摔倒” both mean "没摔倒"
but "差点赶上公车" mean didn't catch the bus, "差点没赶上公车" mean did catch the bus.










flyaway -

“你真不是个东西” actually means you are an asshole.
if someone said this to another person, he/she is swearing.












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Free Chinese Lesson - Online course development opportunities -

> Studying, Working and Living in China > Living in China > Classifieds
Online course development opportunities
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michael day -

Hello all.

National University in San Diego is preparing to roll out an online Chinese Studies degree program
next January.

There are opportunities to develop and teach these courses for qualified individuals.
These include two courses on Chinese History and Culture.

Please see details below:

Course Developers Needed

National University in San Diego is developing an online Chinese Studies degree program and
requests applications for positions as “outside consultants” to develop courses in the
following subject areas:

Chinese Language (Mandarin) 3rd and 4th year [4 courses]
Chinese History & Culture to 1949 [2 courses, with the split at the Ming Dynasty]
Chinese Thought and Religion

The Chinese language courses will be developed on the basis of a 6-week intensive format and the
English language history/culture courses on the basis of a 4-week intensive format.

Applicants must have at least a MA in the relevant subject and relevant teaching experience is
preferable, though not necessary. Salary is competitive, and all work can/will be carried out and
submitted over the Internet under the guidance of the Program Lead (Prof. Day).

Applicants must have currently valid, legal permission to work in the USA (although they do not
need to be resident in the country)

Please send letters of application and CVs by email only to Dr. Michael Day at: mday@nu.edu

Application deadline: July 31, 2007



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Chinese Character - Why do caucasians love English? - Page 6 -

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Why do caucasians love English?
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gato -

Do Caucasians love Cockney?



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Xiao Kui -



Quote:

Maybe not for all people, but for people like me, there is the "rub off" effect. The accents of
those around me will rub off and I may find myself afflicted with their pronunciation.

Put me in a group of learners who have bad pronunciation, bad intonation and bad grammar, and
pretty soon my own skills will deteriorate. This even happens with English which is my native
tongue.

I suspect that this German fellow does not want to pick up or hear any non-native pronunciation.
He likely applies his rule to everyone who is not a native Chinese speaker.
He is just protecting himself so that he doesn't aqcuire any bad habits.

I don't have the problem of picking up other foreigner's accents by conversing with them in
Chinese or hearing them converse in Chinese. There isn't enough exposure in those short exchanges
to pick up bad habits, and my exposure to native speakers overwhelmingly cancels this out.
However, I am routinely tortured in my Chinese class having to listen to some of my classmates
read a 3-4 page article aloud with shoddy pronunciation. It's good practice for them but I don't
think it's helping anyone else! I think they should do it on their own time - not in class.

When the teacher has announced the day before that one of them will be 朗读 ing I always
逃课。 Hope no one has found my insertion of these Chinese characters to be pretentious!










johnd -



Quote:

There isn't enough exposure in those short exchanges to pick up bad habits, and my exposure to
native speakers overwhelmingly cancels this out.

I'd agree with this, and I might even venture that it is even useful to pick up words in this way.
The whole story of who you were speaking to, where you were, what they said, how people laughed at
you when you copied the bad pronunciation, how you found out it was wrong, may indeed help you to
remember the new word.










dalaowai -

This applies to a lot of people, not only caucasians.

I'm french-canadian, my mother tongue is french, however French-Quebecers and France-Frenchies
refuse to speak to me in French. I will meet a French person and they will say with the thickest
French accent in English "Oh, you have the accent that is not so understand, we speak the English,
is easy for me to know, you know?" I spread on the thickest imitation French accent and converse
with them. They know they're getting shat on and I love it.

I have friends in Shanghai who are not Shanghainese, but have learned to speak Shanghaihua and the
Shanghainese will only reply to them in Mandarin.

I have come across thousands of Chinese who will reply to me in English when I fluently spoke to
them in Mandarin.

At the end of the day, there are just a bunch of losers who think that they are better than
everyone else. You just gotta tell those people"The Jerk Store called...and they're running out of
you!"

If you get annoyed by them, just let them speak in English and you can keep replying
是吗？不会吧！真的吗？after every sentence they speak.










SilverTab -

Hey there dalaowai! French-Canadian here too ;)

To get back to the original topic:

I think it could just be a matter of context, but look at it this way...I have yet to visit China
(going later this year) but last year I went to India for a month and a half (as some may know,
it's fairly easy to get around with only English in India). Now my native language is French.
While I was there, when I met other french people (Eighter french-canadians or european). We were
speaking in french...Now, we were pretty much both still "learning" english, as in; english wasn't
our mother tongue, but I already had to speak english all the time in India, and well, when
meeting other french guys, it was a nice "break"...where I could speak french for a while... I
mean sure we could've said: Hey let's speak in english so we both practice it a bit more, but we
both had been speaking english the entire month,so it was a nice change to be able to speak french
with someone...

now maybe this german guy is better in english, and feels more comfortable speaking english, than
having to try and focus on speaking chinese (even if his chinese is good) when he already has to
do so in his classes (as you mentioned), Remember that not everyone might be as thrilled as you
are about learning/speaking chinese...! To get back to the example I was giving: My english is
quite good, and I'd say I'm pretty much fluent in it, but since there is a language I was more
comfortable with between me and the other french tourists, well we used french naturally, and
while I wouldn't be offended if one of them wanted to talk in english (i.e. it takes a lot to
offend me hehe), well I still would prefer to speak french...

And obviously the fact that I don't find talking in english that exciting in the first place, I
didn't really see the use in "practicing" my, already good english, with other french
people...which could be the reasoning of your german (now enemy) friend! ;)

Just throwing some ideas around here anyway!Like I said at first, it's really a matter of context!
And well, different people do different things!










parasite -

This is a really interesting thread and I'm glad I found it. Here -- all along I had been holding
a deep resent and loathing toward the Chinese because I thought it was only because of *their*
culture that I feel akward speaking Chinese to non-Chinese in public. (Especially the way their
eyes turn and they lean in to try to hear, it makes it feel like I'm doing something unusual or
strange.) Lo and behold, it's probably an all around thing with people on both sides (Chinese and
non-Chinese) contributing to the idea that this so-called "language" is not a general language but
one specifically for communicating TO or FROM or (most commonly) IN BETWEEN members of the
'Chinese race' only.

I'm getting on to about 4 years in China, and due to my job, my Chinese has been declining for the
past 2 years. (This infuriates me and I have thought about quitting every day since the day I
started.) My Chinese coworkers have pushed me to the point that I even feel ashmed to say 你好
and 谢谢. (Even when I need to address a guard or Ayi in the office who speaks no English). Who
would have thought that my first 2 years of no culture shock and then getting a certain job --
could lead to culture shock at this level. Every day I'm wishing someone would come in to the
office and go postal on all my coworkers, or that this city would be burnt to the grown.










xiaocai -



Quote:

The inference of course is that there is something wrong with "Caucasians" (what an absurd choice
of a word) "loving" English. I'm sure you would never see a post about why the Chinese "love"
Mandarin.

This comparison doesn't look very logical to me. Mandarin is the only official language for all
Chinese living in China. But how about English to all Caucasians?
BTW, as a Chinese, I like Chinese, including all the dialects and written forms which most of them
I don't understand, not just mandarin. It's good to have variety, right?



Quote:

I have friends in Shanghai who are not Shanghainese, but have learned to speak Shanghaihua and the
Shanghainese will only reply to them in Mandarin.

I think it kind of understandable. 99.99% of Shanghainese speakers are native and even if you
speak with even the slightest accent they will notice it and switch to a common language simply to
be polite to you.



Quote:

Yes, I've heard that's a serious problem for you Germans. In some situations possibly even
resulting in the unfortunate loss of life

Well too bad they didn't know German.










self-taught-mba -

Parasite: take a vacation now. Seriously. Too bad to hear about your situation, but don't get to
your breaking point. jia1 you2!










丽丽_Jinlei -

Cool!










jiasen -

Admittingly I haven't read the whole thread, but I would think the choice between languages
shouldn't really be made into too much of a drama. I don't know if any of you guys used to watch
Seinfeld, but I think this would be a prime candidate for an episode. George or Jerry gets a GF
who speaks another mutual language, and they debate endlessly about which language to speak in.

I can understand why 'westerners' (for lack of a better word) would want to speak English to each
other (ease of conversation, privacy etc). Furthermore I also appreciate the OP's reasons for
wanting to speak Chinese; namely he seems quite enthuisiastic about his new-found language skills,
it gives him enjoyment, it helps him learn etc.

Thus I think the OP should just play this one casually. If someone wants to speak English, you can
just accept that and move on. However its possible to say something along the lines of 'Hey, do
you mind if we have a conversation in Chinese? I'm trying to develop my language skills and it
helps when I converse in it as much as possible'. I live in Australia, and often my other
chinese-speaking friends are reluctant to speak chinese to me for whatever reason. But after I
explain my thoughts to them, they often are willing to oblige. Because my chinese is probably
advanced beginner, they usually speak english to me anyway but i respond in chinese.

It is probably a bit sensitive to refuse to have a discussion with someone based on something like
their language preference. Furthermore its a gross oversimplification to assume that, based on the
behaviour of this guy and some other ppl you know, all caucasians have some obsessive love for
English (i'm sure the french would disagree with that! ).

On the other hand, I would personally ignore 'social rules' which would say that you are
pretentious when you speak Chinese to another caucasian. This is just other people getting
over-dramatic about the whole thing on their side. If you want to have a conversation in Chinese,
and other third parties have a problem with it, who cares. Let them deal with it.












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