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gato -

Do Caucasians love Cockney?



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Xiao Kui -



Quote:

Maybe not for all people, but for people like me, there is the "rub off" effect. The accents of
those around me will rub off and I may find myself afflicted with their pronunciation.

Put me in a group of learners who have bad pronunciation, bad intonation and bad grammar, and
pretty soon my own skills will deteriorate. This even happens with English which is my native
tongue.

I suspect that this German fellow does not want to pick up or hear any non-native pronunciation.
He likely applies his rule to everyone who is not a native Chinese speaker.
He is just protecting himself so that he doesn't aqcuire any bad habits.

I don't have the problem of picking up other foreigner's accents by conversing with them in
Chinese or hearing them converse in Chinese. There isn't enough exposure in those short exchanges
to pick up bad habits, and my exposure to native speakers overwhelmingly cancels this out.
However, I am routinely tortured in my Chinese class having to listen to some of my classmates
read a 3-4 page article aloud with shoddy pronunciation. It's good practice for them but I don't
think it's helping anyone else! I think they should do it on their own time - not in class.

When the teacher has announced the day before that one of them will be 朗读 ing I always
逃课。 Hope no one has found my insertion of these Chinese characters to be pretentious!










johnd -



Quote:

There isn't enough exposure in those short exchanges to pick up bad habits, and my exposure to
native speakers overwhelmingly cancels this out.

I'd agree with this, and I might even venture that it is even useful to pick up words in this way.
The whole story of who you were speaking to, where you were, what they said, how people laughed at
you when you copied the bad pronunciation, how you found out it was wrong, may indeed help you to
remember the new word.










dalaowai -

This applies to a lot of people, not only caucasians.

I'm french-canadian, my mother tongue is french, however French-Quebecers and France-Frenchies
refuse to speak to me in French. I will meet a French person and they will say with the thickest
French accent in English "Oh, you have the accent that is not so understand, we speak the English,
is easy for me to know, you know?" I spread on the thickest imitation French accent and converse
with them. They know they're getting shat on and I love it.

I have friends in Shanghai who are not Shanghainese, but have learned to speak Shanghaihua and the
Shanghainese will only reply to them in Mandarin.

I have come across thousands of Chinese who will reply to me in English when I fluently spoke to
them in Mandarin.

At the end of the day, there are just a bunch of losers who think that they are better than
everyone else. You just gotta tell those people"The Jerk Store called...and they're running out of
you!"

If you get annoyed by them, just let them speak in English and you can keep replying
是吗？不会吧！真的吗？after every sentence they speak.










SilverTab -

Hey there dalaowai! French-Canadian here too ;)

To get back to the original topic:

I think it could just be a matter of context, but look at it this way...I have yet to visit China
(going later this year) but last year I went to India for a month and a half (as some may know,
it's fairly easy to get around with only English in India). Now my native language is French.
While I was there, when I met other french people (Eighter french-canadians or european). We were
speaking in french...Now, we were pretty much both still "learning" english, as in; english wasn't
our mother tongue, but I already had to speak english all the time in India, and well, when
meeting other french guys, it was a nice "break"...where I could speak french for a while... I
mean sure we could've said: Hey let's speak in english so we both practice it a bit more, but we
both had been speaking english the entire month,so it was a nice change to be able to speak french
with someone...

now maybe this german guy is better in english, and feels more comfortable speaking english, than
having to try and focus on speaking chinese (even if his chinese is good) when he already has to
do so in his classes (as you mentioned), Remember that not everyone might be as thrilled as you
are about learning/speaking chinese...! To get back to the example I was giving: My english is
quite good, and I'd say I'm pretty much fluent in it, but since there is a language I was more
comfortable with between me and the other french tourists, well we used french naturally, and
while I wouldn't be offended if one of them wanted to talk in english (i.e. it takes a lot to
offend me hehe), well I still would prefer to speak french...

And obviously the fact that I don't find talking in english that exciting in the first place, I
didn't really see the use in "practicing" my, already good english, with other french
people...which could be the reasoning of your german (now enemy) friend! ;)

Just throwing some ideas around here anyway!Like I said at first, it's really a matter of context!
And well, different people do different things!










parasite -

This is a really interesting thread and I'm glad I found it. Here -- all along I had been holding
a deep resent and loathing toward the Chinese because I thought it was only because of *their*
culture that I feel akward speaking Chinese to non-Chinese in public. (Especially the way their
eyes turn and they lean in to try to hear, it makes it feel like I'm doing something unusual or
strange.) Lo and behold, it's probably an all around thing with people on both sides (Chinese and
non-Chinese) contributing to the idea that this so-called "language" is not a general language but
one specifically for communicating TO or FROM or (most commonly) IN BETWEEN members of the
'Chinese race' only.

I'm getting on to about 4 years in China, and due to my job, my Chinese has been declining for the
past 2 years. (This infuriates me and I have thought about quitting every day since the day I
started.) My Chinese coworkers have pushed me to the point that I even feel ashmed to say 你好
and 谢谢. (Even when I need to address a guard or Ayi in the office who speaks no English). Who
would have thought that my first 2 years of no culture shock and then getting a certain job --
could lead to culture shock at this level. Every day I'm wishing someone would come in to the
office and go postal on all my coworkers, or that this city would be burnt to the grown.










xiaocai -



Quote:

The inference of course is that there is something wrong with "Caucasians" (what an absurd choice
of a word) "loving" English. I'm sure you would never see a post about why the Chinese "love"
Mandarin.

This comparison doesn't look very logical to me. Mandarin is the only official language for all
Chinese living in China. But how about English to all Caucasians?
BTW, as a Chinese, I like Chinese, including all the dialects and written forms which most of them
I don't understand, not just mandarin. It's good to have variety, right?



Quote:

I have friends in Shanghai who are not Shanghainese, but have learned to speak Shanghaihua and the
Shanghainese will only reply to them in Mandarin.

I think it kind of understandable. 99.99% of Shanghainese speakers are native and even if you
speak with even the slightest accent they will notice it and switch to a common language simply to
be polite to you.



Quote:

Yes, I've heard that's a serious problem for you Germans. In some situations possibly even
resulting in the unfortunate loss of life

Well too bad they didn't know German.










self-taught-mba -

Parasite: take a vacation now. Seriously. Too bad to hear about your situation, but don't get to
your breaking point. jia1 you2!










丽丽_Jinlei -

Cool!










jiasen -

Admittingly I haven't read the whole thread, but I would think the choice between languages
shouldn't really be made into too much of a drama. I don't know if any of you guys used to watch
Seinfeld, but I think this would be a prime candidate for an episode. George or Jerry gets a GF
who speaks another mutual language, and they debate endlessly about which language to speak in.

I can understand why 'westerners' (for lack of a better word) would want to speak English to each
other (ease of conversation, privacy etc). Furthermore I also appreciate the OP's reasons for
wanting to speak Chinese; namely he seems quite enthuisiastic about his new-found language skills,
it gives him enjoyment, it helps him learn etc.

Thus I think the OP should just play this one casually. If someone wants to speak English, you can
just accept that and move on. However its possible to say something along the lines of 'Hey, do
you mind if we have a conversation in Chinese? I'm trying to develop my language skills and it
helps when I converse in it as much as possible'. I live in Australia, and often my other
chinese-speaking friends are reluctant to speak chinese to me for whatever reason. But after I
explain my thoughts to them, they often are willing to oblige. Because my chinese is probably
advanced beginner, they usually speak english to me anyway but i respond in chinese.

It is probably a bit sensitive to refuse to have a discussion with someone based on something like
their language preference. Furthermore its a gross oversimplification to assume that, based on the
behaviour of this guy and some other ppl you know, all caucasians have some obsessive love for
English (i'm sure the french would disagree with that! ).

On the other hand, I would personally ignore 'social rules' which would say that you are
pretentious when you speak Chinese to another caucasian. This is just other people getting
over-dramatic about the whole thing on their side. If you want to have a conversation in Chinese,
and other third parties have a problem with it, who cares. Let them deal with it.












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